“We must understand this is only talking about a guru who has all the characteristics, an authentic guru. We are not talking about one who doesn’t have the essential characteristics. So if one has examined them well, and decided they are an authentic guru, as one of the characteristics the guru must have is great compassion, what they say will always be beneficial for us. “
“An authentic guru is not upset because of the guru’s own individual purposes and needs. An authentic guru is only upset or disappointed when we are doing something that doesn’t benefit our own selves, or doing something that impedes us from bringing benefit to beings and the teachings. That is what will upset and offend the guru.”
“At the very end, people who have never actually participated in this problem, and don’t know who did or taught what, even those innocent people have been sullied and stained by that [Karma Kagyu] conflict, and it has really given terrible difficulties to all of us.”
“First, it’s important to check that the guru does not have many faults. But once you follow them, even if you recognize that they’re 100% false, then you should not criticize them. You should separate yourself from them, get some distance. However, to criticize, scold and complain about them is bad, as that will disrupt the interdependence that would allow you to find a good teacher in the future. This is something we need to think about as it will be harmful.”
Introduction
On Day Four of the 17th Karmapa’s teaching on Fifty Verses on the Guru, the 17th Gyalwang Karmapa again emphasised the importance of first choosing a qualified guru, and taking time to examine them for the necessary qualities.
Once a qualified Vajrayana master has been found (and this could take years), and a mutual Vajrayana student-guru relationship has been established (the qualified guru also has to check if the student is a suitable “vessel” and qualified), the Karmapa explained how the advice in the Fifty Verses on a Guru regarding how to serve and abandon disrespect of the guru then applies, which he explains in four main sections.
In my introductory summary and analysis, I share some personal observations and questions about this teaching, in the interests of deepening our study and understanding of them, in the context of other teachings given by the 17th Karmapa recently. The full, unedited transcript, is published below that.
To personally conclude, one might get scared or anxious about having any connection to Vajrayana, with all the talk of vajra and incessant hells. However, if the guru is qualified, then all students/followers have broken samaya with their Vajrayana guru in one way or another. It is impossible for them not to have done so, unless they are a very high level practitioner with a constant flow of bodhicitta, love and compassion is able to act and speak in ways always consistent with samaya and not breach the fourteen Vajrayana root downfalls.
As that is not most people, the best we can do is try our best to keep the vows of all three vehicles, and confess, purify and repair with daily Vajrasattva practice and the four powers until that time. I would also add, that pointing the finger at anyone (not just a well-known guru), falsely labelling them an “enemy of the teachings”, using tantra to kill (liberate) them, and bullying/excluding/attacking women as individuals, is not the Buddhist or Vajra way either.
In any case, if the Guru is qualified, they would be willing to risk their own lives to make sure that a student never went to the hell realms, as the 17th Karmapa previously taught, and as Yeshe Tsogyel herself did for someone who harmed her. Thus, the most important thing of all before engaging in Vajrayana practice is to examine and follow a qualified guru and to be a suitable ‘vessel’ student. Otherwise, it is a massive (and serious) disaster and mess for both the teacher and the student, as we have all seen and experienced.
The root of all samayas and vows of the three buddhist vehicles is truth/honesty, love, compassion and wisdom realising emptiness. Pure perception and respect are not intended only for a guru, especially as the 17th Karmapa also says, we do not know who is an actual Buddha and Bodhisattva or hidden practitioner. In my humble opinion, as long as one does not stray from those fundamental tenets of Buddha’s teachings, then one is still acting in ways that do not cause intentional harm, and bring benefit to oneself, other beings and to the Buddha’s teachings.
Music? Don’t Go Breaking My Heart by Elton John and Kiki Dee, and Never Let Me Down by Depeche Mode.
Written, transcribed and compiled by Adele Tomlin, 4th April 2025.
Analysis and Summary of Day Four teaching on Fifty Verses by 17th Karmapa (2025)
Two sections: abandoning disrespect/denigration and how to be respectful
The 17th Karmapa first gives the outline as discussing two sections of the text and the Sanskrit commentary on it, that was divided into two main sections: 1) abandoning disrespect and 2) how to practice being respectful. As for 1) abandoning disrespect, that has four sections:
- abandoning criticism and denigration
- abandoning disturbing/upsetting the guru
- explaining their unseen faults and
- a summary of those.
The 17th Karmapa then explained some of the negative consequences of being disrespectful, if this is done with real intention and malevolence and from the bottom of one’s heart. Sickness, calamaties, attacks by spirits and so on. Using the Sanskrit commentary and Je Tsongkhapa’s commentary as the basis of explanation.
A possible condition for being wrathfully “liberated” (i.e. deliberately killed)
Interestingly, the 17th Karmapa mentions how criticising the guru even becomes a condition for being “killed”/liberated by wrathful means in secret mantra:
“Moreover, in the secret mantra, we talk about the ten conditions for being liberated. Among the four different types of activity, there’s the wrathful activity and there are people who are the objects of the liberating action of killing those beings. There are two different conditions that must be fulfilled for that to happen, and one of these ten conditions is it someone who criticizes the guru or the jewels, it is said. Thus, criticizing the guru, one can become an enemy who fulfils the ten conditions for being liberated and if you can fulfil that, then I think it’s very difficult to hope for, or develop any experience, realization, qualities and so on.”
Again, as a personal observation, note this is only one of the two conditions for being considered “worthy” of being “liberated” (killed) by so called Buddhists. Now, this is a topic is worthy of separate consideration, and I will write about this again. However, for now, the idea of liberating individuals by “killing them’ is highly questionable as a Buddhist Vajrayana practice and does not fit well with Buddhist fundamentals of love, compassion and non-harm.
Thus, if any teacher or community decides to label someone “an enemy” of their teacher or community, they need to be 100 percent sure that person really is that, otherwise they will face severe, dire consequences for killing a sentient being with good, noble intentions who is on the Buddhist path. In fact, if they lack wisdom and clairvoyance, they may even be killing a Bodhisattva! This is why such methods are generally avoided and regarded for the most part as “black magic”. After all, Shakyamuni Buddha himself never killed his enemies, and did not even see anyone as an enemy and used the most powerful weapons of love and compassion and wisdom of emptiness as the best methods to deal with the afflictions, anger, ignorance and hostility of others.
Mocking a guru in song, or malevolently shaming or harming him
The 17th Karmapa also related two stories that demonstrate the consequences of even a little denigration. One was about a guru, Pamtingpa (said to be a direct disciple of Nāropa), who became very famous for translating the Hevajra Tantra teachings, who was not very handsome and whom a well-known Tibetan translator went to see in Nepal.
When meeting the guru, some students got drunk at the arranged Ganachakra and started mocking the guru in a song as being like a “cow dressed in silk”. At that point the guru didn’t understand the Tibetan, but in the Ganachakra there was a torma that was in the middle of the mandala, that flew up into the sky and he immediately recognized that those students were not receptive and not suitable vessels. So, he immediately told them to leave and criticized and scolded them. But as the translator wasn’t singing the song, he stayed and the guru then gave him many transmissions and empowerments of Hevajra.
So regardless of the guru’s physical appearance, which is not important, even just a little bit of a lack of faith or a small criticism can cause a bad connection. The 17th Karmapa said that was the reason why the secret mantras are so powerful or strict.
Hostile actions towards the 16th Karmapa, Rigpe Dorje by a chant-master at Rumtek Monastery
The next story was more disturbing in a way, about how the 16th Karmapa was disrespected by a chant master who prolonged a ritual sadhana, even though the 16th Karmapa had asked him to finish up. As the Karmapa had diabetes, and needed to go to the bathroom a lot, it is said he lost control of his bowels due to the intentional delay.
That same chant-master, also called the 16th Karmapa like an ‘elderly tea-servant’ and afterwards when he went into retreat he had to leave suddenly, and was never seen again. Likewise, another person at Rumtek, nicknamed Lugthug (small sheep) was always criticising the 16th Karmapa and it is said he eventually went insane.
Here is a short video I made (with specially created subtitles in English) of the Karmapa speaking about this here.
Not upsetting or greatly disappointing the guru’s mind
The second section on abandoning disrespect of the guru is not upsetting or disturbing the guru’s mind. here the 17th Karmapa cites Je Tsongkhapa’s text saying that if a student really upsets and disappoints a guru’s mind, not just annoys them, they will be “cooked in the hells”.
Again, here as a personal observation, previously the 17th Karmapa in his teachings on the Fifty Verse, spoke about how if there is any breach of samaya between a guru and student, regardless of who is qualified or not, they will both fall into the the lower realms, due to the mutual samaya/connection. Hence, if the guru is qualified they will be able to pull the student back from the breach of samaya and help them to repair it. If the guru is unqualified, then they will both fall into the hells.
Also, the 17th Karmapa taught about the nine essential qualities of a qualified guru, that they would be willing to give up their own life to stop a student going to the hell realms (as Yeshe Tsogyel did when asked by Guru Padmasambhava to save a person who had harmed her who was now in the hell realms).
The Karmapa then goes into a brief discussion about how a student who really upsets and disappoints a guru will be “cooked in the hells” and what those hells mean in terms of their level of suffering. However, again the 17th Karmapa emphasises how that only refers to someone whom one has decided is an authentic guru, one who must have great compassion for you and others. They are not getting upset for their own individual purposes as a teacher, but because you are doing something hugely unwise that will not bring benefit to the student or other beings or the teachings.
Again, as a personal observation, I wondered if the people who continue to eat murdered animals, many of whom spend lots of time with the Karmapa, would be included in such a group of deeply upsetting the guru? Why only focus on those women who are survivors of lama misconduct exposing corrupt gurus, right? After all, eating animals not only goes against the 17th Karmapa’s often stated advice, but involves supporting the deliberate killing of beings and a wrong livelihood listed by Buddha himself! So how come those people aren’t focusing on themselves for doing that and save their “wrath” for female survivors? In fact, mass slaughterhouses are like living hells for those animals, so why would such followers of the Karmapa (or the 14th Dalai Lama, or any Tibetan Buddhist teacher) continue to support them anyway?
The 17th Karmapa then spoke about how giving one’s body, speech and mind is also mentioned in the Mahayana Sutras and could be seen as saying essentially the same thing. That we commit to following the way of the Bodhisattvas and not going against their teachings and activities.
The conflict and issues in Karma Kagyu before and after the 16th Karmapa passed away
The 17th Karmapa then spoke about the conflict and divisions that arose in the Karma Kagyu lineage before and after the 16th Karmapa passed away in the USA. He advised people to look within and how they are acting, rather than always pointing the finger of blame outside at others. To check if they could really look the 16th Karmapa in the face if they had to explain their actions and words, and if they are really helping or hindering a harmonious resolution to the situation.
Unseen faults in future lives
The 17th Karmapa then considered the third point, of the unseen faults in future lives of denigrating an authentic Vajra Guru, such as going to the incessant and vajra hells. That according to Je Tsongkhapa’s commentary that gives a quote from the Guhyasamaja Tantra, even beings who have committed heinous acts such as killing a Bodhisattva, that cause immediate rebirth in hell, or rejected the Dharma can purify and practice secret mantra and get accomplishments. However, someone who criticises and denigrates their authentic Vajrayana guru will never achieve any results as long as they practice secret mantra.
Summary: do not denigrate anyone, as they might be a Buddha or Bodhisattva
Finally, the fourth point, the summary, the 17th Karmapa emphasises again that one should put all efforts into never disparaging a Vajrayana guru but also the benefit and necessity of having a “human” guru, like us with some faults and whom we can meet and relate to.We have to accept they may have some faults but must check they do not have lots of faults, and lack the essential qualities. For a video clip of this section, with specially translated English subtitles, see here. Even if we have no Dharma connection with them, we should still be careful, as we do not know who is a Buddha, Bodhisattva, or hidden yogi and so on.
TRANSCRIPT
Abandoning disrespect, and not disturbing the mind of one’s qualified Vajrayana guru
Fifty Verses on the Guru by 17th Karmapa (Transcript Day Four 2025)
Outline
Today first of all I’d like to go through the outline. So this is the way to follow (or serve) the guru. There are two parts to this: 1) abandoning disrespect and 2) how to practice being respectful.
The first of these abandoning disrespect, and this has four points:
- abandoning criticism and denigration
- abandoning disturbing/upsetting the guru
- explaining unseen faults and
- a summary of those.
When you speak about 1) abandoning criticism and denigration, there are two parts: The general teaching and a specific explanation. All of this is based on the outline in Lord Tsongkhapa’s Commentary on the Fifty Verses.
Among these two parts of teaching abandoning criticism in general and specific explanation we have completed the teaching on an abandoning criticism in general. Now, I am talking about the specific explanation.
The first of these verses:
“Those great fools who criticize the guru’s feet will die from plagues, disasters, fevers, evil spirits contagions and from poisons.”
According to Tsongkhapa’s explanation of this verse and the next stanza up the and be killed by Vignaha Vinayaka spirits those first three lines of the next stanza speak about the faults that will occur. If we think about the Sanskrit, Tibetan Chinese and English, I put these all so you can see the correspondence between the original and the translations but there’s not so much time to speak about all of these so I thought we could take a take a brief look at these:
So, when one is actually criticizing the guru and actually thinking about it intentionally and denigrating the guru from one’s heart then in the Sanskrit commentary The Textual Explanation of Serving the Guru is explained there. I think this will be helpful so I will explain it.
When it talks about plagues, disasters, fevers, it speaks about being tormented by vajra fire, strikes, floods, gales, famines, executioners and so forth. Here the disasters are dangerous means the dangers that arise from ghosts, hungry ghosts, monsters, demons, snakes, carnivorous beasts and so on. There is also the word in Sanskrit, “enemy” which means all those people who have a blood feud with.
The next lines read: “evil spirits, fevers, contagions and poisons”. The evil spirits are the don in Tibetan, the rest of the nine are the 12 mamos such as Nandanda and so forth. In other words, they take away sentient beings’ complexion and strength. They are called grasping spirits.
Contagions here are beings and illnesses that come from wind, bile, and so the combinations of the different types of illnesses that occur.
As for poisons there are the plant and animal conducted poisons and transformed poisons. There are four different types of poisons. There are things that if we eat then they will then they will be able to kill sentient beings that’s what we should understand.
The line that says those great fools who criticize the guru’s feet will die from all of the things that I’ve talked about, all of the plagues, disasters, fevers, evil spirits and fires and so forth, all of these will take away the life or destroy the life force of the individual who has criticized the guru.
In the Tibetan commentary, the first word is plagues. This is like an epidemic, for example like the covid- 19 we think about, generally like contagious diseases. The disasters or the dangers are like understood to be meaning dangerous, wild beasts. Contagions refers to various different types of illnesses. The don or the evil spirits refers to all the different types of spirits. Contagions means the uncurable disease that if you get them that are difficult to cure. Poisons are like a poisonous plant or like poisons from venomous snakes or also poisons that are created by people.
When it says those great fools will die from them, means by great fools who have done the great misdeed of criticizing the guru. They don’t see that they’ve done such a terrible thing so they’re called great fools and they will die from the plagues and so forth. We have just mentioned the plagues and disasters and so forth so these will take away their life.
Then the next verse reads:
“They will be killed by tyrants, snakes, water, fire, dakinis, bandits and vighna and vinayaka spirits. And then they will go to the hells.”
So what this teaches, according to Je Tsongkhapa’s commentary, as I said before, that first stanza and then the first three lines of these through vighna and vinayaka spirits. These are all talking about the visible faults that we will see in this life from criticizing the guru. The last line and “then they will go to the hells “teaches what will happen in the next lifetime. Here it is talking about the visible faults and the unseen faults, but they will be talked about in more detail later.
To explain these, in terms of the Sanskrit Textual commentary on Serving the Guru , it says the kings are tyrants. Here kings means tyrants, the result of people who kill, they will be killed by tyrants and so forth and then sent down to the hells. So a king of course means a king who rules over a land. But another way of understanding it, is as the king of Vaishravana and so on, the great master of the Guhaka spirits. He can be understood as a human king or as the Yaskha King, and other kings that are taught in the secret mantra.
The word thieves is not explained here. So there is no particular explanation of this word thieves. However, fire means fire itself, fire and water to mean fire and water themselves. When one speaks about vipers or snakes, this means venomous snakes but not only snakes but it also can include animals that if they bite you or sting you will poison you and kill you. It includes all of these. Then it says Dakinis, and this means the Dakinis that eat flesh and drink blood, this kind of dakini here. Water means water itself.
Then there is the word thieves again, or here robbers, which means robbers or bandits. Bandits will steal from you. Then there are the dons, the obstructor spirits (vignha) the gods such as Brahma, the divine spirits and the naga spirits and so forth. Then there are the false guides, the Vinayaka spirits and so these should be understood as including spirits like Ganapati. Then the word “and” includes all of the kinnaras and maharagas and so forth. So all the kings and so forth and false guides, if you criticize the guru, will kill you, and you will go to the hells. For that reason, you should not criticize the guru even in your dreams. That is what it says.
The way it is described in the Tibetan commentaries is the King is like the punishment of a king, the punishment of a tyrant. These days, there aren’t so many Kings but we can understand it as talking about execution and harm that comes from violating the law, the judicial executions and so forth.
The vignha are these are like the protectors and forth. When we talk about fire and water and so forth these will kill you and then after you die an untimely death or an early death, then you will go to that realm of the hells. The main point here is that if you criticize the three jewels in general, and in particular someone with whom you have a dharma connection, if you disrespect them and criticize them it is a grave offence.
Wrathful “liberation”: killing beings seen as an “enemy’ of the guru and teachings
Moreover, in the secret mantra, we talk about the ten conditions for being liberated. Among the four different types of activity, there’s the wrathful activity and there are people who are the objects of the liberating action of killing those beings. There are two different conditions that must be fulfilled for that to happen, and one of these ten conditions is it someone who criticizes the guru or the jewels, it is said? Thus, criticizing the guru, one can become an enemy who fulfils the ten conditions for being liberated and if you can fulfil that, then I think it’s very difficult to hope for, or develop any experience, realization, qualities and so on. For this reason, people who criticize their guru and the three jewels and so forth, need to be very careful about that. There are some stories about this. If I only teach the text there is no point, so it’s good to tell some stories about this.
History examples: 1) mocking a guru like “a cow dressed in robes”
One story is that if someone is just a little disrespectful it can have consequences, there are many stories of this. One story in Tibet there was an important Chal family lineage. There were many different translators in that lineage and one of them was Kasachalsen Gyaltsan. He was a student of a very famous student of Naropa who was from Nepal his name was Phamtingpa. And he translated the Hevajra tantras into Tibetan and became very well-known. Initially, Chalsen was a student of Go Lotsawa, there’s a translator named Tana Go, this is not the Go Lotsawa Zhonu Pel one but another one named Tana Go. He was I think a student of Je Atisha I believe.
Anyway, Chalsan was a student of his but he didn’t have many things to offer and did not have a lot of wealth. So, he didn’t have much to offer. In the old days, the great lamas in Tibet and particularly the great translators, if you wanted to receive the empowerments and so forth from them, you had to make big offerings. So, he had no nothing to offer so he was unable to receive the Guhyasamaja tantra and the empowerment and the teachings.
For that reason, he went south to Nepal and asked people there “who here is learned in the dharma?” He was asking all around and he was told that there Pel Jigme Dragpa, who was direct disciple of Naropa and he was a siddha who has received all the teachings like being filled from a vase. He lived at a place called Pipiphara, and so everyone suggested he do this. So Chalsanam immediately went to meet the guru Pel Jigme Dragpa (I think this is the name of Pamtingpa). At that point, Chal the translator himself took the lead and he gathered many students and all the necessary conditions and arranged a Ganachakra. In the past, when you had a Ganachakra, one had to drink beer. So all of his friends got drunk on the beer and said various things about the guru such as he actually didn’t have a very good complexion, he was kind of a commoner from a lower caste, a commoner and he didn’t know Tibetan well, and because he didn’t know Tibetan very well, and since they’re Tibetan they got drunk on the beer they started to sing a song in Tibetan. They sang that this “Lama Phamting is well-known but when you see him on the throne, he looks an old cow that’s covered with silk, there is nothing else”. This is the song that they sang. They must have sung it in Tibetan as they are Tibetans.
Anyway, this is what they did and they had like kind of stained their samaya with the teacher, because they were saying various things to the guru. However, immediately in the Ganachakra there was a torma that was in the middle of that in the mandala, which flew up into the sky. At that point, he didn’t understand the Tibetan, but when he saw the Torma fly into the sky he immediately recognized that those students were not receptive and not suitable vessels. So, he immediately told them to leave, and gave a hand sign saying leave, and criticized and scolded them. So those who are singing the song who said all these things that he looked like a cow wrapped in silk, they all left and could not even get out the door quick enough. But the translator Chal wasn’t singing that song and because of that he stayed, and so he didn’t have any problem with this.
Of course, the lama was not the most attractive guy but Chal didn’t lose faith and he didn’t have any breach in his samaya. He said please accept me as a student and then the guru Pamtingpa gladly accepted and took him and gave Chal the empowerments of Nairatma, Hevajra and so forth. He taught all of the twelve commentaries on the Hevajra Tantra. So then. Chal’s activities spread widely and flourished.
So the guru might have a dark complexion but that is not really that important. So, even just a little bit of a lack of faith, or just a small criticism, because of that there was a breach of samaya and a bad interdependent connection. I think this is one reason why the secret mantras are so powerful, or so strict is because of that.
Malevolent actions and words towards the 16th Karmapa while at Rumtek Monastery
There are many other stories about that and there’s some that I’ve heard myself. For example, the 16th Karmapa travelled all over the world and the east and west and everyone had faith in him as an actual Buddha. He went to many countries where Buddhism had not been there before and when he went there Buddhism spread. He was like an incredible guru who appeared but even within his monastery there were people who were disrespectful of him. Somebody even derided and looked down on him and there were a few people who even criticized him in private.
So, one of them was a chant master and because he was well learned, he had a bad streak inside of him. In the latter part of the Karmapa’s life he had diabetes and so had to go to the bathroom frequently. One time during a Vajrakilaya puja, the Karmapa said: “Please finish the session quickly, I need to stop.” But the chant-master just immediately and intentionally went even slower, and it is said that the Karmapa even lost control over his bowels while on the throne. There was a really bad streak in this guy, right?
Another thing I heard, which think is true. In another puja, the 16th Karmapa pulled him over and said “The way you’re playing the cymbals is not quite right.” And then the chant-master said “What do you know? You don’t have any more education than the old tea servant”. Those who were not well-educated and had few good qualities, were called “tea servants”. Usually, the 16th Karmapa was very strict and normally he would say something.
At that point the 16th Karmapa’s face turned dark and he didn’t say anything and said: “May I never have to have anything to do with people like you again.” The people around saw it. Then, later the chant-master went into the retreat centre and he suddenly had to leave the retreat centre, no one knew what happened to him. This another story.
Likewise in the old days of Rumtek, there was a monk named Lugtuk who was an attendant and so from a young age his body looked a bit like a sheep, so they gave him a mean nickname of “little sheep”, or touching the sheep. He spent his whole life just criticizing Rigpe Dorje, 16th Karmapa, he never did anything but criticize him. Then, later he went completely insane.
These are not stories I am telling to scare you. If you are not careful then this will happen to you. I am not trying to scare you but showing that there are going to be faults that happen. we need to know that if that happens then there will be problems. If you think that you can have these problems and nothing is going to happen, that’s not going to be of any benefit. For that reason, people who have faith and pure view of the guru, although they have some temporary minor difficulties, but in the end but they always turn out well. Whereas, those people who are disrespectful of the guru, in the short term it might seem like things work out for them, or people think that everything goes well, but in the end, things do not turn out well for them.
Like during the Cultural Revolution, there were many people who fought with the monastics and teachers, or they destroyed statues and so forth. Yet, after they died they would give their bodies to vultures but vultures wouldn’t eat, or even touch the corpses. This is not just in one area but basically all over Tibet. There are many stories of this. I think this is something that we should consider and check.
2) Not upsetting/disturbing the mind of an authentic guru
Next, I would like to speak about the second section in 1) abandoning denigration of the guru: not upsetting/disturbing the mind of the guru.
“You must never rile the mind of the master. A fool who does will certainly be cooked in hell.”
What this teaches is someone who criticizes a guru by denigrating them, if merely criticizing them has such great problems then what happens if you actually upset and disturb the guru’s mind, it is unnecessary to say that upsetting them is also great offense.
In Je Tsongkhapa’s commentary it says that if any of your behaviour upsets the teacher’s mind, and really completely disappoints them, not just kind of annoys them, but completely disappoints the guru. If there’s a foolish student, if they are just too foolish, and do some fault then they will definitely be be cooked in hell because it’s their fault or definitely will produce the result of suffering.
It is like a karma that will definitely be experienced. It is not that it might not be experienced, it will definitely will be experienced, but you can confess it. Even if it is karma that will be definitely experienced, if you confess it with the four powers, then as it says in the Great Commentary on the 8,000 then that that misdeed can be purified.
The true dharma has various different methods and ways, so even if you’ve done something terrible but if you have a real regret for that and confess it, and have the resolve not to do that, you truly do this then you can purify it.
So, if you please the guru then you receive the blessings from their mind and you receive blessings that are really distinctive blessings from the guru and it’s like receiving blessings that are different than those you receive from the Buddhas and the Bodhisattvas. This is a well known.
For example, it says in Mikyo Dorje’s prayer: “By these my roots are virtue of the three times” but in this prayer it says “no matter what I do, whether virtuous, evil, or neutral, may I only please him. May I never do anything that displeases him for even an instant.” This is the aspiration. If in order to please the guru and to not displease them you need to make aspirations to do this the reason why you have to make the aspiration and if the guru is displeased then you are creating the basis for receiving the compassion and blessings. If the guru is displeased or upset there’s basically no hope of receiving any blessings or siddhis.
So when talking about making the guru angry, upsetting or disappointing them, there’s a little bit of a difference between them. So if we talk about making the guru angry, it’s possible that you can do something that’s not quite right that will anger them, some small thing you do, such as if you are not doing a job right, the way you’re moving your hands is not quite right, then sometimes then the it’s possible the guru will scold you, and might even get angry.
However, when we talk about upsetting or disappointing a guru here, it is when your intentions and your actions are fundamentally mistaken, and the guru is upset and really disappointed. That is the great kind of upset, when we talk about upsetting the guru. That is what it means here.
Here, when we talk about the incessant hell, as a kind of digression, it’s talked about in both the sutras and the tantras. In the sutras among the eight hot hells, the lowest of them is listed as the incessant and is a specific kind of hell. The Kalacakra, talks about the eight great hells, but the incessant hell is not listed as one of them. Likewise, the tantras speak about the vajra hell, this term appears frequently but the vajra hell, is also not one of the eight great hells. That word does not appear there.
When talking about the vajra hell, in terms of the tantras, Karma Trinlepa and other masters say that this is a general name for the hells. Some other scholars say that the eighth hell, the vajra hell is the eighth of the hells listed in the Kalachakra and so forth. The last of these is called the vajra point of the needle hell.
So, the question is are the vajra hell and the incessant hell the same, or are they different? There are many different explanations of this. Most Kadampas, as well as The Single Intent of the Drigung school explain that the vajra and the incessant hell are the same. There are also some scholars who say that the vajra hell has even more intense suffering than the incessant hell. For that reason, they say that the vajra and the incessant hell are different. But we don’t have a lot of time to describe that so much, I won’t say more about that today.
Must be an authentic guru with great compassion
When speaking about a guru, we must understand we are only talking about a guru who has all the characteristics, an authentic guru. We are not talking about one who does not have the essential characteristics. So, if one has decided they are an authentic guru, anything they say is going to be beneficial for us. As one of the characteristics they must have is great compassion, then what they say will always be beneficial for us. It is impossible that they would say anything that would harm us.
When we do something that upsets a qualified guru, the way we should understand that is doing something different than what the guru wishes, when you do something contradictory to the guru, making the wrong interdependent connections and that is what upsets them.
The authentic guru is not upset because of the guru’s own individual purposes. It only upsets/disappoints an authentic guru when we are doing something that doesn’t benefit our own selves or doing something that impedes us from bringing benefit to beings and the teachings. That is what will upset and offend the guru. Here, when we talk about serving the guru and so forth, it comes after the master and student have examined each other and have clearly decided the guru has all the qualifications and they are actual receptive students.
Giving one’s body, speech and mind in the Mahayana Sutras
It is not just the Secret Mantra though, the Mahayana Sutra tradition speaks about offering your body speech and mind. These words come up offering your body, speech, and mind to the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas and then giving up non virtue of the body, speech, and mind for sentient beings and using your body speech and mind to work for the sake of sentient beings and saying you have to make your body, speech, and mind meaningful.
The way one does this, I don’t know how to do this myself but if I am going to give my body, speech and mind to the bodhisattvas and the Buddhas, once I’ve done that then I’ll do as they did, I will perform the activities of a bodhisattva, as they said and then benefit beings. This is what it means like giving your body, speech, and mind to the students. This is taught in the sutras of the Mahayana. Likewise in the secret mantra, it speaks about giving your body, speech, and mind to the guru and then accomplishing whatever the guru says.
I think these both come down to the same thing, that if you’re talking about a guru who has the characteristics, then that guru no matter what they tell you to do, will always be in accord with the dharma and will help you with your practice. If you can do that then this is a way to bring yourself to the level of liberation without any difficulty, So, when we say do whatever the guru says, the main point of this is something we have to know now.
The conflict and divisions in Karma Kagyu before and after the 16th Karmapa passed away
When we talk about not upsetting the guru, we cannot avoid thinking about what happened when the 16th Karmapa passed away. There have been many events within our Karma Kamtsang lineage thar happened even before the 16th Karmapa passed away.
Before the 16th Karmapa went to Hong Kong, and then to America, but before he left Rumtek, he said we have to get along together, you have to be like birds in a nest. We have to live and work together and be harmonious. If you do that then no one will be able to harm us. He basically left this like his testament saying you should do this. However, in actual practice it didn’t turn out as he left in his testament.
This is not just a question of what happened after he passed away. Even before he passed away there must have been some signs of discord before that. However, as long as he was still alive due to his majestic presence, he just overwhelmed everything. So those with negative intentions really couldn’t act on them very much.
Yet, after he passed away like people thought well, now we have the opportunity and then they started acting out. But the Karmapa was not like ordinary people like us, when a guru is like a Buddha like the Karmapa it’s possible he can go to another life, but he can still actually look at us with the eye of compassion and see us. His body is now no longer there but we should think he’s staying there looking at us with compassion, and we should be just as careful as when he was living there. But forget about being careful, there was no one there to stop them from doing things. People thought “I’m going to do what I want” and the conflict started.
In the end, what happened is that the gurus and the monasteries broke into two camps, and our one lineage broke into two factions and we gained a bad reputation internationally. That is still what people think about. But we think “I did this for the sake of the guru, I did this for the sake of the dharma” and thinking like this is basically just fooling ourselves. It is nothing other than that. In actuality, we could not have done anything worse for the guru, or for the dharma. For that reason, we have the Karma Kagyu that has lasted for over 900 years from the time of Dusum Kyenpa to the present and we have created a great stain on that history that no one else was able to do before.
Why was there such a bad problem? Whose fault was it, whose mistake was it? So, at that time we cannot point our finger outside, we cannot point at someone else, we need to point the finger at ourselves. If instead, we say: “I’m not wrong, I’m right, they made all the mistakes” and point only outside at other people, then there’s never going to be any time when we will be able to see our own faults. It is like the great spiritual friend Longri Dampa said: “no matter what profound scriptures I read and open, then they all say that all the faults are my own, all the qualities belong to sentient beings, and because of this point I need to give all profit and victory to others and take all loss and defeat on myself. I can’t find any other way to understand it.” It’s just as he said. The main thing is we need to look inside ourselves, to see “What are my own mistakes, what shortcomings do I have, what is my problem?” It is important for us to look at this.
When we look at the situation of other people whether outsiders look at it, or other lineages, no matter who looks at it, they are all saying the Karma Kagyu lineage are all infighting. They do not look at who made the mistake, whose problem it was. The people in the rest of the world they just do not know and do not have time and do not really understand the situation. They just know that the Karma Kamtsang and their heart sons do not really get along. And at the very end, then people who have never actually participated in this problem, and don’t know who did or taught what, even those innocent people have been sullied and stained by that conflict, and it has really given terrible difficulties to all of us.
We have the King Gesar epics. There is the Shenphen, the great Mongolian King, who later surrendered to Gesar and then Gesar made him one of the ministers of Ling. At that point Shashanti said: “you can’t do that, Shenphen lost the capital, there’s no way that this can happen, and they got in a conflict. At very end what happened, they started looking for Gesar, and then Gesar descended from the heaven and he saw everything. This divine being saw the infighting and the civil strife within them is a very difficult situation.
He said: “you are not allowed to do this, you need to listen to whatever Gesar says and do what he needs. This person Shenphen is very important for the future.” When he said that, then only then the minister Denma’s mind completely changed and from that time on, he did whatever Gesar said and listened. Then Shenpa and Denma became friends and there was like this alliance between Shen and Denmma.
So if the 16th Karmapa were actually to come in front of us and appear to us again, what would happen for us? What would we all do? We have to think about it. We probably wouldn’t dare to go see him immediately. We would think “He’s going to criticize me, he’s going to scold me or he’s going to be offended. We’ve disappointed him, when he looks at what we’ve done. He is going to be disappointed.”
There are probably very few people would actually dare lift up their faces and look at him. I think it’s difficult among us. I think what we ought to do is look deep in our hearts. We all have to understand that we have these faults and regrets, but we don’t admit that we have made the mistakes and that we they regret things. Basically, until the time of their deaths they do not think they have done anything wrong. It is only then that that they come up. But as long as they are alive they do not think they made a mistake, or accept they were mistaken that I regret it.
If we think about because of the way we’ve acted and done things, all of our root gurus, the guru and jewels and the master of our teachings, the 16th Karmapa we’ve disappointed him, we have upset him, we’ve done a lot of things that have caused that. But even now, there are people who just won’t give up their own selfish interests, and they continue to provoke things and they continue to act and do many things that they really shouldn’t be doing.
For that reason, in the future, I think that we all have to need to look at the 16th Karmapa in the face and we need to think about the honour of the Kamsang teachings. We need to think about what will be beneficial for this life and the next. If we want to be able to face the people of our country it’s important for us all to come together and to work harmoniously together.
If instead, if we think whose fault is it? Whose mistake was it? We say “it’s their fault” they say “it’s our fault”, and if we all stand like that, there’s no way that we’re going to get over this and get out of the situation. We need to stop all that and we need to think about this situation. Is this something the 16th Karmapa would want to fulfill his wishes? If it is not, when we realize that, then I think only then we can understand the situation.
3) Unseen faults that will occur in future lives
To continue the third section is the unseen faults that would occur in our future lives.
“It is taught that those who criticize the master will stay in the incessant and other terrifying hells.”
In terms of the commentary by Lord Tsongkhapa, which is the most complete, it says the hells means all the hells that are taught in the tantras, the incessant hell, the vajra hell, and so forth. This includes the hells that have the greatest suffering. The hells where those who have criticized the guru will stay and experience suffering for a long time. This is extracted from, as it says, the fifth chapter of the root Guhyasamaja Tantra:
“Those beings who have done heinous acts or terrible misdeeds can practice the supreme path, the great ocean of the Vajrayana. Those who criticize the guru from their heart, might practice but will not accomplish anything.”
The way he explains this in his commentary, it says:
“Those who kill their parents, or an arhat, who draw blood from a Tathagata, or reject the dharma.”
Basically, people have committed the heinous acts because of which they will fall into hell immediately after dying. Likewise, the people who have done the near heinous acts, the 14 root downfalls and so forth. Even if they receive the completion phase of the guru’s kindness, then they might have done a heinous act but they can achieve the results through the secret mantra.
However, someone who starts following a vajra master as their guru and later, they think that guru is not doing anything and they criticize that vajra master. Not just unintentionally, but if they criticize the guru from the bottom of their heart, then that individual cannot accomplish anything through the secret mantra. For that reason, it’s even a greater misdeed than rejecting the dharma, committing heinous acts. The act of criticizing the authentic Vajrayana guru is even worse than those.
4) Summary
Next, is the fourth point, the summary.
“Therefore you should put all your efforts toward never disparaging at all the greatly intelligent vajra master, who keeps their virtues fully concealed.”
The meaning of this verse is that the bad results that come from criticizing the guru are so extremely serious. Thus, one should put all of one’s efforts and power that one has to never disparage the vajra master who has great experience, broad knowledge and knows a lot. Someone who also keeps their own great virtue concealed or hidden.
Basically, someone who has great virtues, and great knowledge but they act as hidden yogis. One should never disparage someone like that. In general, people who are students but in particular, those who have requested them to be their guru who loving advice for students in general. In particular to those who request the profound dharma, they should be very careful of this. Not only your own guru you shouldn’t criticise, if you criticize others’s guru is also great impediment for achieving your own accomplishment, as explained before.
If you think about in terms of the human dharmas, basically there’s no one who’s been more kind to us than her parents. But from the perspective of the divine true dharma, there is no one who’s kinder than the guru and spiritual friend. In particular, in the secret mantra of Vajrayana, the guru is the root of samaya, the foundation of all practice, and the source of all accomplishment. So it is very crucial for us to be very careful and we need to respect them and follow them properly.
These days, the main people that people complain about are the lamas and the tulkus. if we think about unreligious worldly people it’s understandable because they don’t really understand what is important. If you think about us monastics in particular, mantra practitioners we have to be really careful. The reason for this is that when we are speaking about what the guru does that isn’t right. I don’t think this is good. If we do not have a dharma connection with them, that’s one thing and it is not so bad. However, even if you don’t have a dharma connection you just don’t know who’s a great being and who’s a bodhisattva. So, if you think “I don’t have a dharma connection” and then say whatever you want, that’s not right because you don’t know who’s a great being or who’s a bodhisattva.
Even criticising other gurus should not be done lightly, as we do not know who is a Buddha or Bodhisattva
It is possible that even the old dog outside next to you, or a cow outside, might be a bodhisattva. We have no idea who’s the emanation of a Buddha or a Bodhisattva and who is a great being. If we criticize them, there’s a possibility of committing a great offence.
For example, people in business and shops have to be very careful of who their customers are. Sometimes people don’t know who’s rich or not these days. Rich people, if you look at them might be dressed like beggars, wearing really ragged clothes. If they don’t treat them well, then there’s the possibility they lose that opportunity to make a good sale. So, if we understand it in this way then we have no idea who’s like a great being or bodhisattva, there’s no way to know. You can’t just go around criticizing anyone. If you have a dharma connection it’s actually even more so that you must not complain about them.
Like I said yesterday, it’s difficult to find a guru who has all the qualities, or has no faults at all. It’s quite possible that the guru will have faults. One cannot insist they be someone who has no faults. If they have a few faults, we need to be able to accept that. If they have a lot of faults, that’s a big problem. First, you have to look at them and compare their faults and their qualities, if they have more qualities that’s fine. We can know this clearly.
We need to be able to accept someone who has a few faults. If we think about it from one perspective, the gurus are the same as us in being made out of flesh blood and bones and having feelings of pleasure and pain and because of that we’re able to associate with them. We can eat and drink with them, we can have conversations with them, right?
If we want a guru who doesn’t have such an ordinary appearance, but has an undefiled kaya or body, then there’s no way we could actually meet the guru like that. There are Buddhas and bodhisattvas who may fill all of space who are present, but we cannot see them, we cannot ask them any questions, and cannot talk to them. It is basically the same as if they are not there.
There are those who have ordinary appearances like us, who have feelings of pleasure and fame, sometimes they’re happy, sometimes sad. That actually is beneficial for us. Constantly waiting for someone you can never see or speak to, that is difficult. You need a guru whom you can see, who can tell you not to do this and who can actually take you by the hand and guide you along the path. That’s what’s beneficial for us, right?
Whether the guru has an ordinary appearance like us and someone who has feelings of pleasure that’s what we need. If we had to have someone who is greater than that, we would not be able to receive any dharma teachings from them and cannot even see them. So how can we receive teachings from them? If we think about it from one perspective, someone who has an ordinary appearance and seems to have faults, that is a sign that we can gather the accumulations, and it works out for us. But if they have a lot of faults then that’s something we need to be careful about.
First, it’s important to see that the guru does not have many faults. But once you follow them, even if you recognize that they are 100% false and faulty, then you cannot just criticize them. You should separate yourself from them, get some distance. However, to criticize and to scold them, complain about them is bad as that will disrupt the interdependence that would allow you to find a good teacher in the future. This is something we need to think about as it will be harmful.
Years ago during period of intensive meditation I saw for few seconds hell with crying people. American Lama Surya Das ( he met XVI Karmapa ) also reported that he saw hell.
Have you read “The Biographies of Rechungpa” by Peter Alan Roberts? Dakpo Kagyupas have been fighting against their roots from the very beginning. They vilified Rechungpa, made Milarepa celibate and proclaimed him to be a main student of Marpa, then they got rid of Ngok mandalas and replaced them with ones of questionable origin from Go Lotsawa. Root teachings of real Kagyu, like Tilopa’s “Truly Valid Words” and Naropa’s “Five Nails to Dispel Hindrances” are never taught or practiced.
Everyone tried to fabricate their own version of how Kagyu (read: Kadam with sutrified tantra) should be. And this is ongoing, I even saw some Kagyu lamas openly bashing mahasiddhas.
So what is this “Kagyu” that’s left today? Except for Drukpa which still maintains Rechungpa’s original practice and spirit, Dakpo Kagyu is in reality pure Kadam. EXACTLY what Milarepa warned against when he met Gampopa. It has nothing to do with Marpa anymore, whose teachings ended up in Taranatha’s lineage and are probably not practiced anymore by anyone.
What was left of Kagyu yogis left for Nyingma while “Kagyupas” are still fighting and trying to find their own identity.
Interesting and valid comment and I agree in some ways too. The monasticisation of Kagyu ever since the days of Kadampa and then the Gelugpas has been disastrous, particularly for the Vajrayana teachings and practice in Tibet, Nepal and Bhutan, but also for women as consorts! Monks were NEVER meant to have consorts, physical or secret, as the Kadam master Atisha (and yogi) taught in his well know text, Lamp on the Path to Enlightnment, they are not even meant to take the second or third empowerments of highest yoga tantra! So why are people like 14th Dalai Lama giving Kalacakra empowerments to masses of monks and nuns is beyond me.
In any case, the tension between monastic and tantric vows of a yogi is clear for all to see. Women generally as consorts are the ones who suffer the most it seems. Having to be the source of the monk’s wisdom but absolutely no public acknowledgement, friendship, thanks or anything else, and even lots of public condemnation by the monastics and laypeople around that teacher. It was never like that before with the Indian mahasiddhas who all had to leave monastics institutions, and many had women as their teachers to reduce their pride etc. like Tilopa. So the patriarchal monasticism as you say is not the pure Kagyu roots it all came from.
Have you seen the Kagyu artwork I commissioned of the female lineage holders and teachers of Kagyu? https://dakinitranslations.com/2024/09/27/female-lineage-kagyu-thangka-artwork-adele-tomlin/
Also please do read and watch my talk I gave at the Vajrayana conference in Bhutan on the monastic takeover of Vajrayana and its female yogic roots: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKpzv_8ztb4
And: https://dakinitranslations.com/2022/12/23/going-back-to-the-female-roots-of-vajrayana/
However, let us not forget that the massive suppression of all the Kagyu lineages, and of Jonang (Taranatha etc.) but the Kadam Gelugpas and Mongolian invaders has been the worst thing that ever happened to Kagyu and Tibetan Buddhism as a whole. The censorship, destruction of shedras, monasteries, suppression of study, practice and publication of texts, as well as having a politically appointed spiritual head, the Dalai Lama everyone having to follow and bow down to, has led to the horrendous situation the Tibetans find themselves in today. So it is not surprising at all that Kagyu lineages lost their way, it was destroyed by the Mongolian-Gelug forces, and they are still trying to do that even in Indian exile.
The matters you described above, both regarding women and monks, have been dealt in a very serious, academic manner in Introduction section of David B. Gray’s translation of Cakrasamvara Tantra. And its really not pretty (especially regarding women).
Regarding Atisa, as found in David’s Introduction chapter:
“While the sexual components of the tantras did not likely originate in the Buddhist monastic context, it seems almost certain that these practices were adopted by some Buddhists in the influential Northern Indian centers such as Nālandā and Vikramaśīla by the time Atīśa was writing in the early eleventh century. Yet they were not completely accepted nor unambiguously integrated into the monastic ritual program. Given their focus on the enjoyment (bhoga) of things prohibited to monks, such integration would not have come easily. That the monastic precepts were at times broken in monastic communities by tantric adepts is suggested by the hagiographies of siddhas such as Virūpa and Maitrīpa, who were monks until dismissed from the monasteries for allegedly violating the monastic code.
As Buddhist tantric traditions in India (likely) and Tibet (certainly, with some exceptions) appear to have been dominated by monks, Atīśa’s proposed solution of excluding monks from two of the four higher consecrations was probably unacceptable. Thus, rather than excluding monks from these higher consecrations, the consecrations themselves were transformed, with overt sexual practices being replaced by the development of public symbolic performances, and with karmamudrā (actual, physical consort) practices conducted privately, if at all. That compromise was possible on this issue is suggested by the Tibetan context, in which the tantras would come to be fully accepted within the monastic ritual programs. The Tibetans adapted the secret and wisdom-gnosis consecrations to the monastic context, removing completely — in public performances of the consecration ceremonies at least — all sexual practice, with the red and white drops being symbolized by neutral substances similar in appearance.
The consecrations thus came to be performed in a symbolic fashion. Moreover, this dichotomy of real versus symbolic ritual performance corresponds to two modes of yoga that were also developed by tantric Buddhist monastic communities. These are practice with an actual physical consort (karmamudrā), versus practice with a visualized consort (jñānamudrā). For example, Vīravajra, commenting on the term “consort’s body” (prajñāṅga) in chapter fifty-one, explains that “consort’s body indicates either the physical consort for lay bodhisattvas, or the reality or symbolic seals for those on the path of liberation.” There is some evidence which suggests, however, that the practice tradition of the sexual yogas has still been maintained, but has been reserved for the “highest” class of adept, for whom the issue of celibacy may no longer be a central concern.”
This issue of non-monastic yogic vs monastics sutric practice has been the dominant characteristic of Indian Buddhism. And it passed on into Tibet, where another, purely political, issue was added on top – “purity” and “validity” of “Chinese” vs “Tibetan” Dharma (Samye debate), which later on flared into sectarianism.
So in the end everything comes down to how 3 vows work. As a potential solution to this problem, it seems that a system was developed in Vikramasila and Nalanda that was represented by Abhayakara (who asserts that just as various pieces of gold jewelry share the same nature by virtue of being made of gold, but differ in form – a crown, an anklet, a bracelet, etc. – the three ethical systems share the same nature of being [rooted in] an attitude of restraint, but differ in form. – Lodro Thaye’s Buddhist Ethics, p. 302) and which later served as foundation for Jikten Sumgon’s system of 3 vows, which Karma Chagme called precious (https://dgongs1.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/08/kch-3-vows-english.pdf). More on vows can be read in “Three-Vow Theories in Tibetan Buddhism” by Jan-Ulrich Sobisch.
IIRC in the same work from Lodro Thaye, we can also find him encouraging monks to engage in karmamudra in secret and without shame, calling it profound secret path. This, in contrast to statement above, reflects Gampopa approach to 3 vows.
The post is getting long, so Ill conclude: I fully agree, some issues have never been sincerely resolved and it has been disaster for vajrayana in Tibet. I feel like its not as a big problem for Jonang monks (Kalachakra requires celebacy) or Nyingma (ngakpas are not monks), but it has been a devastating blow for Kagyu and Gelug, and lesser extent Sakya.
Cannot reply to all your comment, no time. But yes, trying to mix monasticism and tantric consort practice, a disaster for Vinaya and Vajrayana. It was never meant to be so. Most yogis had to leave the monasteries to do such practices, not continue them in secret because of the potential for misunderstanding and misinterpretation.
Kalacakra does not require clibacy at all. In fact, Taranatha and other Kalacakra commentators state that a physical consort is absolutely necessary in Kalacakra advanced practices. It was the Gelugpas who distorted all that, and suppressed the Jonang Kalacakra and lineage traditions and texts, including the Shentong view.
As for it being disaster for Kagyu, the main culprits of the disaster that happened to Kagyu (and Jonang and Nyingma) lineages, texts and traditions was the Gelugpa-Mongolian suppression, censorship and authoritarian monasticism they had to endure for 300 years. That rule and ideology led to the first time in Tibet a political and spiritual leader was appointed by a foreign invading army in Tibet, and also who they got the Chinese Qing dynasty so involved in the administration and politics of TIbet, that led the Chinese claiming ownership of it. The Gelugpas, as predicted by Guru Padmasambhava himself in many termas discovered in the 14th and 15th centuries stated that the yellow hats would bring ruin on Tibet and the Buddha Dharma, he was so right about that!
Cannot comment on what else you say other than the yogic practices of Marpa are still present to some extent and also the 17th Karmapa is reviving the unique Karma Kagyu lineages of 1st Karmapa, Dusum Khyenpa the five sets of five deity practices, such as five-deity Tara and five deity Hevajra and also the four-fold mandala offering to Noble Tara, that came down to the Kagyu from Nagarjuna and Je Atisha. The Kalacakra itself was also one of the 3rd Karmapa’s subjects of expertise, and they had a Kalacakra pure lineage, as did Jonang, but that all changed when the Gelugpas violently took power and started doing Kalacakra mass empowerments for political, social and entertainment purposes following the lead of the 9th Panchen Lama who did them with Chinese co-operation after he had to flee Gelugpa bullying and power there.
Personally, I think monks should keep well out of Highest Yoga Tantra practice for a variety of reasons. Women in particular, feel used, abused and harmed when monks use them as consorts. It is easier and less controversial when laypeople do it for sure, and causes less confusion and concern among the general public and in monasteries too.