Today is 25th December (Christmas Day for many), and a time of joy, giving and celebration, and tomorrow (26th) is a full moon. So it is with great pleasure to offer this timely ‘gift’ today (to women in particular) of a new Dakini Conversations podcast interview with renowned British-born Tibetan Buddhist nun and teacher, Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo! The podcast can be watched on Youtube here (subtitle captions available, click on CC):
Also audio-only podcast is on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and Amazon Music. Apologies for my ‘hazy’ video image of myself (not Jetsunma) but I am travelling on pilgrimage, it was evening and the internet connection was not so great, but the sound quality is fine.
On Tara Day (20th December 2023), it was a delight and honour to interview Jetsunma, who is now an unbelievable eighty years old. Jetsunma’s activities are hard to describe in a few words, as she is like an emanation of Noble Tara or Vajrayogini in human form, yet I will try. One of the first western fully ordained Buddhist nuns in the Tibetan Buddhist tradition, Jetsunma has pioneered by action and example the empowerment and recognition of the great capacities and potential of female practitioners and nuns, not only by spending twelve years in retreat in an isolated cave in the snow, but also from her founding and leading an extremely beautiful and thriving Dongyu Gyatsal Ling nunnery in Himachal Pradesh, India. In addition, her accessible, relevant lively, passionate and honest teachings and love of the Buddha Dharma. Jetsunma is also a passionate advocate against ethical misconduct and female inequality in Buddhist cultural traditions, but also an animal-lover who practices what she preaches with a vegetarian diet. Turning eighty years old this year, Jetsunma is still going strong in terms of Dharma activities and giving teachings, attending Buddhist conferences and going on Buddhist pilgrimages, as well as kindly and graciously agreeing to the interview.
In our ‘conversation’, Jetsunma talks us through her background and upbringing in the UK, to her first trip to India (on a boat!) and life as a foreign woman living in an around monastics and yogic practitioners. Meeting her main guru, 8th Khamtrul Rinpoche (for an article I wrote about the Khamtrul Rinpoches and Tashi Jong monastery, see here), her taking ordination vows from the 16th Karmapa, and her 12 year retreat, three years of which were in an isolated cave (the subject of bestselling book Cave in the Snow, by journalist, Vicki Mackenzie). Then her leaving retreat and the reasons for founding one of the most beautiful and thriving Tibetan Buddhist nunneries, Dongyu Gatsal Ling in Himachal Pradesh, India. Her connection with the Karmapas did not end there though, in October 2014, the 17th Karmapa gave teachings on Mahamudra and a White Tara empowerment to thousands of people in person-and online, see here.
We then move on to speak about the patriarchal sexism and misconduct of male teachers within the Tibetan and Himalayan Buddhist traditions and how women might be able to move on and break free from it, as well as the practice of Vajrayana by monastics, and whether it is compatible with monastic vows (Je Atisha said it is not). This is followed by a passionate discussion of Buddhism and vegetarianism and what Jetsunma terms the ‘innate hypocrisy’ of Buddhists preaching love and compassion yet constantly eating animals without any real necessity or reason (for more on Jetsunma’s stance on not eating ‘our friends’, see my article here). The discussion ends with Jetsunma speaking about future plans and ‘nun leadership only’ for the DGL nunnery when she passes away and her reaction to being awarded the title Jetsunma in 2008 by the 12th Gyalwang Drugpa and how she initially did not really welcome it. The enthronement ceremony of Jetsunma can be watched here.
For more on Jetsunma’s amazing life and activities, see here website, tenzinpalmo.com.
Music? White Tara mantra by Drugmo Gyal, Dakini Dance at Dongyu Gatsal Ling nunnery I filmed last year, for Jetsunma’s Vajrayogini passion and energy I’m Every Woman by Chaka Khan and I’m A Woman by Koko Taylor.
May it provide inspiration and encouragement to all the female practitioners out there of our great capacity and potential as women to attain full awakening but also to engage in beneficial Dharma activities and practice for all until that time!
Written and created by Adele Tomlin, 25th December 2023.
Outline of topics in Dakini Conversations with Jetsunma Tenzin Palmo
Outline
00:00:00 Introduction
00:01:32 Growing up in the UK and early view of reality and meaning of life
00:04:04 Discovering Buddhism at age 18 and a library book, Unshaken Mind
00:05:03 Looking for the Guru: travelling to India in a boat at age 20
00:06:21 A foreign woman in India
00:09:35 Working as Freda Bedi’s secretary
00:10:56 Best ever 21st birthday present, meeting and taking refuge vows with 8th Khamtrul Rinpoche
00:11:27 Becoming a nun: taking Rabjung vows and past-life as a monk
00:12:52 Taking novice (Getsulma) vows from the 16th Karmapa
00:14:31 Taking full ordination (Gelongma) vows in Hong Kong in 1973 and why it is important
00:16:34 The challenges of keeping the full ordination vows/vinaya
00:17:11 Living with the Togden yogis
00:18:48 Going into retreat in 1976: first in a Lahul monastery for eight year
00:21:50 Dakini Energy: Moving to an isolated cave and the dakini energy there
00:23:19 The challenges of getting to the cave itself
00:24:40 Complete isolation and getting snowed in and facing death alone
00:28:13 Biggest ‘takeaway’ from the retreat
00:29:15 Leaving meditation retreat after 12 years and going to Assisi, Italy, inspired by Dante’s Divine Comedy
00:32:33 Unable to go back into retreat and return to India as English teacher to 9th Khamtrul Rinpoche
00:33:11 Being asked to found a nunnery and asking Green Tara for help
00:34:29 The passing away of her guru, 8th Khamtrul Rinpoche at age 48
00:36:48 Starting the first Drugpa Kagyu nunnery in exile and advice from Dorzong Rinpoche
00:38:51 Inspiration for the amazing female paintings inside the nunnery and images that resonate with women
00:41:29 Full ordination for nuns – challenges and progress
00:44:58 The representation of ‘men taking all the credit for women’s empowerment’ in Buddhism
and asking questions about sexual organs during ordination
00:46:25 Why the full ordination for nuns is important for women in Buddhism: the four-fold sangha
00:48:46 Monastics practising Vajrayana, is it permissible or advisable?
00:52:18 The misuse, objectification and abuse of women in Vajrayana as consorts and the hypocrisy of pseudo-monks
00:54:23 How can women move forward and break free from the patriarchal sexism?
00:55:30 Women not supporting other women and ‘token women’ and breaking free
00:58:06 Women leading by example and not emulating men
01:00:06 Buddhism and vegetarianism, becoming vegetarian and eating animals in vegetarian India
01:02:36 The questions of eating meat for health and the Gelugpa example
01:03:17 The ‘innate hypocrisy’ of Buddhists eating animals and not listening to advice from their teachers
01:06:36 Getting the title ‘Jetsunma’ from 12th Gyalwang Drugpa
01:09:54 Future plans: Khenmo awards, Togdenmas in long retreat
01:11:37 The future of the DGL nunnery – instructions not to hand over to monks but keep it female-led and managed
01:13:11 What is the essence of Buddhism and Buddhist practice?
01:15:14 The deity practice in Vajrayana and the naked, perfection of the female body as wisdom
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